D.I.V.O.R.C.E.
STEVE MARRIOTT: Immediate wanted us to re-sign, and we wouldn't
at the time. We were saying "No, we want this much dough
to re-sign," and they, for some reason, decided not to pay
us what they owed us, let alone what we were asking to re-sign.
And for about two months we didn't have anything. The original
contract must have been for three years (JOHN HELLIER: 10 June
1965 until 9 June 1968?), it must have been. "The Universal"
was released right around that time (June 1968). We left Immediate
then, anyway. We had totally lost confidence in them. We knew
that Tony Calder was even taking Andrew for a ride. I'll probably
get sued for that, but it was true. We tried to warn Andrew and
said "Look, if we're getting took, don't you think that you
are? You're a bigger lunatic than all of us?" And he did
-- he got took. But they done us good.
I'll tell you how sick they were at the end of this. I'd fallen
out badly with Andrew by then, although I didn't really know it.
I asked him to lend me 1200 pounds so that I could finish off
the completion of buying this house, and he said "Yeah, if
you'll get the rest of the band to sign for two more years. And
I can keep your publishing." I said: "Goddamit Andrew,
I can't do that." And this nice agent -- Arthur Howes --
lent it to me, and I was very glad to give it back in cash a year
later. We left Immediate before the breakup, and went with a thing
called Shillingford Lamm -- they owned a place in Marlowe where
we were staying -- they were an advertising firm who made TV commercials,
and they said "we'll manage you." We didn't know what
to do -- we were kind of lost. So we went from one to another
like that. The last thing to come out was "Wham Bam Thank
You Mam" with "Afterglow" on the A-side. We had
to force them (Immediate) to put it out, and since they didn't
like it, they didn't do anything about it. We'd already left their
management before that -- we had to, they weren't managing anything.
It suited Andrew's purposes to keep us in the studio. And so the
road thing really suffered. By the time we came out of the hole,
after being in the studio for a year, the road sounded terrible
to me. That's when I thought "it's got to be over."
See, since Andrew had a record company, he didn't have to work
hard as a manager, did he? We were on his label and under his
management. So it suited his purpose to have us turning out records
he just has to market rather than manage us on the road and worry
about all that kind of shit. We loved the opportunity to use all
the facilities of the studio, but we just didn't sound that good
when we came out of the studio, not for awhile.
RONNIE LANE: In actual fact when the Small Faces got calmed down
a little bit, and then we heard ourselves ... that's why Steve
Marriott left the band.
STEVE MARRIOTT: I think when the screaming stopped and you actually
heard what you were playing we went: "Jesus Christ! It's
a bit bad, innit?" We grew out of screaming, and also they
started to label everything: if you got screamed at, you were
teenybopper. Even the crowds became conscious of that, so they
wouldn't scream. We didn't want to be a teenybopper band anyway.
There weren't any labels when we started doing what we were doing
and getting screamed at -- it was just called "excitement,"
that was the label. So the louder you got screamed at, the better
you supposedly were in successful vibes -- The Who got screamed
at, The Stones got screamed at, Spencer Davis got screamed at
-- that was how you gauged how popular you were. There was no
other way.
KEN SHARP: Could you sense any dissatisfaction from Steve at
that time?
KENNEY JONES: Oh, yeah. After Ogdens', we'd all reached
kind of a plateau, and it was like "where do we go from here?"
Ogdens' frightened us a bit -- how do we top this one (ed.
note: it was a huge #1 hit album). We were all proud of it, but
I think Steve was thinking it was a good time to depart. Everybody
was deathly sick of the whole teenypop image. It was like we were
the Monkees, but we weren't, and we knew it. I think Steve wanted
to get a bit heavier, playing around with Frampton and all that.
IAN MCLAGAN: I didn't sense any dissatisfaction from Steve at
the time. He was becoming more and more sort of self-centered.
This was while we were living together. We did "Lazy Sunday",
and he did "The Universal" which he cut on a tape machine
in the woods behind that house, and then we overdubbed it. He
told me years later that when "Lazy Sunday" came out
and it was a big hit, he was pissed off. We all were really. Then
when "The Universal" came out -- and it was all him,
basically, and it was an even bigger hit, he felt like he was
dragging the group down. I personally think he was full of shit.
I don't think he thought that at all. What does that change? I
love Steve, bless his heart, but he was a pain in the neck to
be around. He was very very intense, the most hyper guy I've ever
met. He didn't need any leapers. He was always like that. A very
intense guy. I mean, you'd go to bed and it was like whew! (sigh
of relief).
STEVE MARRIOTT: Then I suggested that maybe Pete (Frampton had
just left mega-popular teenybopper group The Herd, and had just
been called "The Face of 1968" in England) should join,
because I just wasn't satisfied with my live playing. I'd lost
something in the studio -- got very "studio" about playing
guitar, and had forgotten how to do it right. I didn't have the
confidence anymore -- expand the band a bit so we could do more,
so I wouldn't have to play or worry about playing too much --
I could sing more. Pete was a fan of the band's.
IAN MCLAGAN: Peter Frampton sat in with the band a couple of
times. I don't know, who knew what Steve wanted. Steve was like
twenty miles ahead of you. We didn't need him (Frampton). Fuck
no! We never needed him. It was Steve's way of saying he was a
better guitarist. Frampton was nowhere near as good as Steve,
he had no fire. Steve was feisty, you know! He wanted to give
the guitar role to someone else and concentrate on singin'. But
Frampton was never gonna join the Small Faces! (said as an ultimatum)
STEVE MARRIOTT: The reaction to that idea was terrible -- wish
I'd never said it. It just didn't go down too well. Ronnie didn't
want it, no one wanted it. So that's when I first thought, "Well,
Christ, I want to play live, but not the way I feel about it now."
I'd just lost a lot of confidence.
KEN SHARP: How was the gig with Frampton? Did it add something
to the band?
IAN MCLAGAN: Z'alright. It didn't "add." We didn't
need him.
KENNEY JONES: No it worked, it was great, no problem. I don't
think Frampton was ever asked to join. Marriott and Frampton started
playing together and then they formed Humble Pie.
STEVE MARRIOTT: I don't know why they didn't want Frampton in
the band. Maybe they thought he was wimpy or something. The kid
had come around the cottage a lot and stuff and played some real
good guitar, and I knew he was capable of playing some really
tasty stuff. He'd never heard of Booker T & the MG's or any
of these things I had. Once again, it was like opening up a flower
-- they heard this music and go crazy 'cos they've never heard
it before. So, he wanted to play that kind of stuff, and I thought,
"Well, the time's right." That's my role in life --
turning people on to r'n'b. That's what I've done all the time.
That's how you form groups, 'cos you play them things and they
freak out and love it so much that you decide to play together.
That's exactly what happens every time.
I told Andrew what I was going to do, and asked him what he thought
of me and Peter playing together 'cos I was broke. We were all
broke -- desperately broke -- and I couldn't get out of that contract.
Not unless he wanted to give it away, and I'm certain he wasn't
about to do that. The accounts that were still outstanding came
about because of Don Arden. See, Don Arden didn't pay us any money
because he said he was paying off money, and apparently he didn't
pay them. So at the end of the day we were left with bills that
we thought were paid years ago. Immediate bought our contract
off Harold Davidson for 20,000 pounds, and it was our thing to
pay them back. And we were paying and paying -- that's where our
money was going, to pay them back. And I though that if we paid
them back, the contract became ours, surely. Ronnie and I investigated
and said, "Well, have we paid it back?" And I remember
Tony Calder's reply was "What? Paid what?" We said "The
20,000 pounds that we've been paying back the last year and a
half." And he said "What 20,000 pounds?" 'Cos we
didn't have anything on paper -- it was just an understanding.
According to Calder, there never was a 20,000. We lost that plus
-- you're talking about hundred of thousands probably by then,
a year and a half later.
KEN SHARP: What do you remember about the album when you guys
backed up Johnny Hallyday?
IAN MCLAGAN: I have a CD of that now. It's unbearable to listen
to.It's pretty rotten. That was with Frampton. Mick Jones of Journey
(KEN SHARP:: you mean of Foreigner) was writing and producing
with Johnny Hallyday, and Glyn Johns was engineering. (everybody
laughing) I never know who's who in those bands -- they're like
the Beatles and the Stones of blandness! Industry rock; I always
say the wrong band. But anyway, Mick Jones was writing and producing,
and we were basically fucked, we didn't have any money and didn't
have any idea what was going on...we were looking for.... Maybe
Steve was already leaving....I think Glyn Johns was trying to
get Steve and Pete together. That was when they got together.
Mick Jones told me that Glyn Johns definitely broke up the Small
Faces. I wrote a chapter in the book about it, but I don't know
if it's true! (laughing) I gotta speak to Glyn about this -- I
don't know if I should hate him (laughing). I don't know why we
did the album, we were short of money, I think. I can't listen
to it. It wasn't a great time in my life, I was pretty pissed
off. I don't know which came first: Glyn Johns or Peter Frampton
or Steve.
STEVE MARRIOTT: The best we sounded (at the end of the group)
was when we did some sessions for Johnny Hallyday, and I took
Peter Frampton with me to the sessions in Paris. This is where
I thought "Oh he'd be good in the band itself." When
we did these sessions, we were officially still on Immediate,
but unofficially not. We were still under contract to Immediate,
kind of, because they pulled an option on us -- that was what
the dispute was over. They just let it ride and didn't tell us
they had an option. Something like that went down. Glyn Johns
asked us to come to Paris 'cos Johnny Hallyday had always been
a fan of ours, and wanted the Smooth Faces -- as he used to call
us -- to come over and back him. So it was great, we unloaded
some songs on him, too. Songs from way back like "That Man"
and stuff like that. And some new ones that I'd just began to
write which appeared on the first Humble Pie album: "What
You Will" and "Buttermilk Boy." I'm still getting
money for that and it's terrific -- thank you, Johnny!
KENNEY JONES: I remember playing great. I actually enjoyed playing
with Peter Frampton because his guitar playing at the time was
great, he really impressed me.
RONNIE LANE: You remember all the Supergroups that started around
that time, Cream and the like? Steve Marriott decided he wanted
to be taken seriously, and so he went off with Pete Frampton and
left me, Ian, and Kenney in the lurch!
IAN MCLAGAN: The gig at the Alexandra Palace (31 Dec. 1968) wasn't
the last gig. We did a tour of Germany after that. Read the book!
That was the gig where Steve told us he was leaving. In fact,
he got Alexis Korner to come on-stage and jam with us -- that's
how I know we did "Lazy Sunday" live 'cos we ended with
it, and where it goes to the end and it fades, he said Alexis
is gonna come on-stage, and then he left us. Just walked offstage.
The fucker! And left us just jamming on one note with Alexis,
so we walked off after awhile. He told us he was leaving there
in the dressing room, I think Frampton was there, and said he
was forming a group with Pete. Well, fuck off! We had a tour of
Germany booked, and as we'd been ripped off, I took over finances
on that and made sure we got paid.
STEVE MARRIOTT: I couldn't hear nothing. It was just a waste
of time, and the worst thing was that it was my idea to get Alexis
Korner on the stage and Nick South. That was the night we'd come
back from Paris. The sound was appalling anyway, but when the
other two came on it was just like everyone was sort of heads
down. I couldn't make head or tail of what was going on, so I
just put my guitar down and split. I couldn't hear a damned thing
-- it was just a big mash of sound. I didn't even know what we
were supposed to be playing, you know. It wasn't really stoned
that night, but it was a big echoey hall. Everyone was turned
on full and there was no contact with the audience. You lose that
eye contact, which is important on stage, when you do alot of
studio work. You've got big cans to use, and you lose eye contact.
I couldn't get anyone's eyes to know where the fuck we were. It
just sounded a total shambles and I couldn't fit in. So I said,
"Bollocks, I've had it with this." It was very unprofessional
of me, I know, but I couldn't handle it. In the dressing room
I had a row and said I was out. There were still some gigs to
go in Germany, so we went to Germany and finished them off. We
had some heart to hearts about it -- me and Mac did at least,
I don't think Ronnie was talking to me. But it had to be done.
I think it was the best thing to do right then 'cos we were digging
a big hole for ourselves, really. It allowed them...you know,
me, to have a good start. What they didn't realize was that it
allowed them to have a fresh start. That's the drag of having
a front man -- when the front man falls, the band falls. And I
had fallen. I wasn't a good front man on stage at all after that
-- after making Ogdens'. Lack of confidence.
KENNEY JONES: I have no recollection of that last tour at all.
No memory of it. I remember Steve walking off stage at the Alexandra
Palace, and Steve walking off stage and that was it. I can't remember
the other thing at all.
IAN MCLAGAN: The last tour was alright actually. Yeah, the pressure
was off, and we just had fun. It was okay, I don't have any bad
feelings about it. I've got bad feelings about how the money got
sorted out at the end, but you'll have to read the book for that.
STEVE MARRIOTT: I told Andrew what I was doing, that I couldn't
handle this anymore. I had a lot of pressure not to do it because
it was not good in a business way, but I said that had nothing
to do with it. I just don't feel comfortable anymore, and if you
don't feel comfortable and actually feel uncomfortable, there's
no point. I didn't talk to him before the Alexandra Palace. I'd
been feeling that way for awhile but hadn't said anything -- maybe
I should have done, should have gotten it off my chest. But I
really hadn't, so I just blew up. Which is good 'cos that sort
of thing just has to come out. And he (Andrew) took me on, but
really wasn't interested in the rest of the band. That's the fate
of a front man. It's always like that. See, it's a very short-sighted
view, and I was quite amazed that he didn't see the talent in
Kenney, Ronnie, and Mac. I think they are very extremely talented
people. I don't think Ronnie really wanted to be more to the front.
What we were playing on stage I don't think was Ronnie's cup of
tea anyway. He wanted to sound like him, but the songs we were
doing on stage were sort of derivative from me. He sang "Shake",
I think, but even that was derivative. And he wanted to sound
like Ronnie Lane which is fair enough. And at least the breakup
gave him a chance to. I was quite an overwhelming kind of person,
both in the studio and out of it. If I didn't like the way someone
was playing something, I'd go and play it myself. So that was
the vibe. They'd say, "Well, you fucking play it" and
I would.
KEN SHARP: If the band had stayed together and Steve hadn't left,
what direction musically do you think you would have gone in?
KENNEY JONES: I think we would have been messing around with
the same music we played between us all. As a new instrument came
out, we would have been using it to our advantage. Who knows?
I think we would have done wonderful stuff! I think the Britpop
movement now are doing it for us. They're taking the best elements
of Small Faces, and they're making a new flavor of ice cream.
IAN MCLAGAN: Oh, I would have left, I mean, I already left when
we were doing those other sessions, "Wham Bam Thank You Mam"
and "Collibosher" in the studio, he was being too pushy
and I said "...oh, fuck you, I'm leaving!" and got a
cab home. And the motherfucker got Nicky Hopkins in. He phoned
him immediately, and he played on "Wham Bam Thank You Mam."
There's two versions, I'm on one of them. I know Nicky played
a great piano on it, God rest his soul! (Hopkins passed away not
too long ago).
STEVE MARRIOTT: I think I left at the right time. I think that
if I'd hung about then maybe it would still be the Small Faces
and maybe they wouldn't be the legends they are now in your mind.
We could have stuck it out and maybe gone all shitty, but I think
we split at a fucking good point -- on a high note, so to speak.
I mean, at the time Ronnie couldn't understand it, Mac couldn't
understand it, it was like "...what the fuck are you doing?"
and I said, well, "if I leave now it gives us a new lease
on life." Individually you can do such and such, and I can
do this, with all this under our belts. With a bit of self respect.
I did the same with Humble Pie, too, I left when it was peaking.
But that's what you've got to do, as soon as it becomes money,
and not the music, ya gotta go.
KEN SHARP: The Autumn Stone was issued after the band
broke up. I know you didn't have any involvement with that, but
what do you think of that album in retrospect?
IAN MCLAGAN: I don't listen to it. It's got kind of a bad taste
when I listen to it.
STEVE MARRIOTT: There was a time when we didn't have anything
at all, just a couple of new songs that Andrew didn't want, and
then later on he put them out on The Autumn Stone. He didn't
like (the song) "The Autumn Stone," and then he had
the cheek to call that Immediate album The Autumn Stone,
and we thought "Oh, you bastard." It was like me telling
him I wanted to call the Apostolic Intervention (Jerry Shirley's
band, who released a Small Faces cover "(Tell Me) Have You
Ever Seen Me" produced by Marriott and Lane) The Nice. He
said "You're not calling them that. That's a stupid name."
And then he went and called (P. P.Arnold's backing band with Keith
Emerson) The Nice. And I said again, "You bastard."
He was a thief, an idea thief -- that Andrew.
RONNIE LANE: We didn't know what to do for a while. The old man
always told me to stick together, and I encouraged the boys to
stick together. One day we were gonna stick together, by night
time we weren't, the next day we were gonna stick together, then
we weren't, and so on. This went on for about nine months. In
the end, Ron Wood (originally in mod groups the Birds and The
Creation, then just leaving a position as bassist for the Jeff
Beck Group) phoned me up to ask if I'd join his new band he was
getting together. So I went down to the Rolling Stones' rehearsal
studio in Bermondsey, which was run by Ian Stewart -- he's no
longer with us, you know, bless him! So I tried it out, you know,
and I didn't like it very much, so I said why don't you come and
join me and the boys, what's left of the Small Faces -- me, Mac
and Kenney. I saw Stu, Ian Stewart, and said "...can the
boys have some space down here..." and he said "...sure,
The Stones would like to help you out." So anyway, we went
down there, and Ron Wood came down and he brought his friend Rod
Stewart, who he'd played with in the Jeff Beck Group. Rod started
to come to the rehearsals, and he'd hang around upstairs. So one
day Kenney said "...why don't you come down and sing with
us." Rod started to sod about -- I quite liked Rod's sense
of humor, he's a very comical guy, as is Ronnie Wood. We started
to play together and our whole thing was rather than do it like
a Supergroup where you really take yourself seriously, y'know
like Serious Blues, we'd just come on stage and we'd get pissed
(drunk) and sort of have a good time.
JODY DENBERG: Now you were artists!
RONNIE LANE: Well, no, we were drunks! It went down good, and
the record company, Warner Brothers, said you've gotta keep the
name Small Faces because the group was so popular, and we said:
"...we're not that Small anymore" -- Rod and Ronnie
anyway -- so that's how we became The Faces.
JODY DENBERG: Ron Wood was asked to join the group, but Rod Stewart
just kind of hung out and sang a bit, and finally someone asked
him to join the group?
RONNIE LANE: Kenney Jones did, silly sod!
JODY DENBERG: The rock industry has developed to where there
are managers who maybe won't rip you off, good sound systems,
booking agencies, and stuff. In essence, the Small Faces and their
peer groups were like guinea pigs for modern bands.
RONNIE LANE: (Wistfully) Yes, they was. It hurt, too.
STEVE MARRIOTT: Growing up together as we did, of course there
would be hard feelings. I don't think Ronnie believed me -- as
close as we were -- he thought I was just pulling a moody, I think.
When he realized that I definitely did want out, he didn't talk
to me for a long time. I think we're over that now, I hope so.
We must be.
IAN MCLAGAN: (Don Arden) has to sleep at night, I don't know
how he does. We'll have our day in court, I'll tell you that.
Him, Andrew Oldham, Tony Calder, Charly, Repertoire, and all these
other labels. Sony have come around. Decca is next. Decca never
paid us a penny until after Steve died, now they're coming around.
That's why all these labels are putting out the box sets now,
because of the renewed interest. But we're after them, they should
all be a little worried because we were all under 21. We don't
have a contract with Decca anyway, never did. We had a contract
with Arden and he leased them the material. But they'll all get
theirs, one of these days. I really want us to put out -- not
a box set, it won't need to be a box set. We'll have a Decca set
and an Immediate set, it'll have the date they were recorded,
and in a chronological order, every b-side and everything. And
no fucking "alternate takes" because we never kept any
of that shit -- Andrew just went in and remixed them in the interests
of making up extra product. All those alternate takes are just
Andrews remixes just to make more money for himself. There's only
one take of "Itchycoo Park," "Tin Soldier,"
the rest we dumped. [In 2003, the band finally released an
actual authorized career-spanning Small Faces compilation, called
The Ultimate Collection, on Sanctuary in the UK only. It actually
made the Top Forty and won a Silver Disc award. Justice was slow
in coming, but still damned sweet.]
